【英日対訳】ミュージシャン達の言葉what's in their mind


【英日対訳:キース・ジャレット】インタビュー:BBC "Jazz on3" '09(6)

Interview with Keith Jarrett 

(Reprinted from old DTM; originally posted September 2009. Thanks to Peggy Sutton of BBC’s Jazz on 3 for arranging the interview.  Steve Weiss was the engineer and Bradley Farberman handled the transcription.) 

BBCラジオ3(BBCのラジオ局)の番組「Jazz on 3」の2009年のインタビューです(聞き手:イーサン・アイヴァーソン[ピアノ奏者、作曲家、音楽評論家)。 





EI:  Well, you showed serious humility. You’re a young virtuoso. Everyone knows it. You’re clearly the next step in a certain kind of advanced jazz piano idiom. And instead of showcasing your virtuosity, you allowed the music to just happen, surrounded by a pack of wild dogs. What I especially love is that you had a trio – which is most virtuosic pianists’ ideal, to have a piano trio – but you’re still not satisfied it’s got enough ragged edges, so you get Dewey Redman as well. 




KJ:  That’s true. We walked past each other. I heard Ornette with Dewey, in the mud, in a festival in Belgium, I think. It was just like walking in quicksand, and then I had to go to the dressing room and play after them. And I came offstage after I played, and this was with a couple of guys from the Poconos, because Paul and Charlie couldn’t do these gigs, they couldn’t afford it. They didn’t want to wait around in Europe in case we had work. So I came offstage and I had heard Dewey play for the first time, and he had heard me play for the first time. We walked past each other in the dressing room and we both said, “Hey man, I wanna work with you sometime.” And so, I just called him first. Or something. And then the first time Dewey played with us was at Slug’s Saloon. 




EI:  There’s something about the way each phrase goes next to each other in Dewey’s playing that only a few people have. 




KJ:  And when it’s intense… When he was on, he was definitely on. He was afraid that he was incompetent to play on chords. And one night, we’re playing one of my pieces, on which he never plays on the chords. And all of a sudden I’m noticing, wait, he’s playing on these chords, and not only is he playing on them, it’s like he’s done this for his whole life. It’s the only time it ever happened. And we came off the stage, and I said to Dewey, “What the hell… what was that, man!” He said, “Well, Don Byas died today. I just felt Don’s spirit.” Yeah. He played the shit out of the chords. He just played like he never had a problem with chords in his life. 


そしてアツくなってくると… 彼はスイッチが入るとばっちりハマるんです。彼はコードに乗って演奏するのが苦手なことを気にしていました。ある晩、その時は僕が作った曲を演奏してたのですが、今までは、彼は全然コードに乗らなかったんです。ところがその晩の演奏が始まると、僕は突然気づいたんです。あれ?あいつ、コードに乗れてるじゃないか、それも乗れてると言うより、今までもずっと乗れてたと言わんばかりの出来じゃないか。こんなことは今までに一度もなかったことです。それで演奏のあと、ステージから降りて彼に言ったんです「おいおい、あれは一体どうしたんだい?!」すると彼は「いやなに、今日ドン・バイアスが亡くなってな。彼のスピリットを感じたんだ。」と。そう、彼はついにコードに乗ってあの憎ったらしいほどの演奏をやってのけたんだ。それも、今までコードで苦労したことなんてありませんよ、みたいな顔して。 


EI:  I don’t know how it was received at the time, but my generation of musicians regard it as one of the greatest bands in history. 




KJ:  I broke up the band, right? Then somebody said to me, “How could you break up one of the most important bands in the history of modern jazz?” And I said, “Why didn’t you say that before? Why now?” But I guess it was a seeping process. You have to hear a lot of it, and it starts to dawn on you what exactly is going on. I don’t think you can choose a track and throw it at somebody and say, “What do you think of that?” 




EI:  I love the musicians who are so provocative that some people will never understand it. To this day people think, like, whatever, Paul Motian can’t swing, or they think the most outrageous things that aren’t true… Who swings more than Paul Motian, anyway? But the real thing in that band was Paul and Charlie; playing free, playing tempo, playing vamps – that’s one of the greatest hookups ever. 


一部の人には決して理解されないような、刺激的なミュージシャンが僕は大好きなんです。今でも例えばそう、何でもいいんですが、ポール・モチアンはスイングできないとか、とんでもないことを考えてる人達がいますが、デタラメです… ポール・モチアンほどスイングする人はいないでしょう。あのバンドでのポールとチャーリーといったら-フリーでも、テンポのあるものでも、ヴァンプでも-まさに本物の演奏でした。彼らは合わないようでいて、じつは史上最高のコンビのひとつです。 


KJ:  And it started with me, because I don’t know if they even knew each other before that. But then when they left, I saw all these groups who were put together for a gig, or something, and there’d be Charlie and Paul and Dewey. With Pat Metheny, or Mick Goodrick, whatever. Well, I guess I started an idea that had a longer life than I had. 




EI:  Oh, for sure. Paul and Charlie recorded on many of each other’s records and also with Geri Allen… lots of people. 

You bring out the best in collaborators. And I was just talking to a drummer in Australia, and I asked him who his favorite drummer was, and he said “Jack DeJohnette.” And I said, “Well, what Jack records do you like?” Surprised, he responded, “The Keith records, of course,” as if there were no other records. My suspicion is that Jack and Gary play just how they want to play with you. 


ああ、確かにそうですね。ポールとチャーリーも、お互いの多くのレコーディングで共演してますし、あとジェリ・アレンもそうですよね… 他にもたくさんいます。あなたはいつも、ご自分の共演者達から最高のものを引き出す人です。実は私はつい最近、あるオーストラリアのドラマーと話をしたばかりなんですが、彼に好きなドラマーは誰かと訊いたら「ジャック・ディジョネットだ」と答えました。それで「じゃあ、ジャックのどのレコードが好き?」と訊ねると、驚いたことに彼は「もちろんキースのレコードさ。」と。まるで他にレコードがないと言わんばかりの答え方でしたよ。これは僕の勘ぐりですが、ジャックもゲイリーも、あなたと演奏する時はこういう風にやりたい、というのを、どこでもやっているのではないでしょうか。 


KJ:  Yeah, yeah. That’s the whole idea. In the beginning, I sat down at dinner with them and scared the shit out of Gary by saying, “Well, we’ll do the things like ‘All the Things You Are.’” 

“What? What? What? Why would we do that?” 




But I explained that we all had experience as leaders, and I said, “You both know what a privilege it is to be a sideman. What if we were all sidemen? In the music itself?” We don’t have to rehearse. I don’t want any of that. So that’s how it’s forever been with the trio: We show up, we do the soundcheck, we have dinner backstage, we chat. Sometimes about… whatever. It could be about the universe, it could be about garage doors not working. And then we go. And we play. But I haven’t been in a group before where I’ve known the people I was working with and trusted them to show up at whatever their best is at the moment. They know that’s the job. The job is to just be there. Not think that they know what’s gonna happen. 



EI:  At this point, of course, the Standards Trio has a very extensive discography; it’s added up to a lot of tunes. Some of them you must have learned recently. How do you learn tunes these days? 




KJ:  One of us knows most of them, you know? It’s like, “What’s the bridge to that?” (The famous “I don’t know what the bridge is” joke.) 


3人のうち、誰かが知ってるんです。例えていうなら「この曲を理解するための橋渡しは何だ?」みたいな。スイマセン有名な「橋渡しなんて、知らない」もじりました。[訳注ビリー・ホリデーの「You don't know what love is, until you've learned the meaning of the blues」をひねったやり取り) 


EI:  Even something like “Shaw ’Nuff”? You’ve always known that? 




KJ:  That probably came out of one of the fake books. Maybe I heard the Gerry Mulligan version? Most of the ballads, for example, I know all the words to. I spent a lot of my early years hearing vocalists sing almost everything that I play as a ballad. 

But here’s something I never realized my entire life until recently. Years ago, I decided I wanted to do something about lost love. But only recently did I feel that emotion so… graphically. I thought, “I gotta open the piano. And I have to turn on the recorder.” I don’t feel like it, but I’m gonna do it. And, of course, all these songs are songs I heard sung. I have the records from which I heard them. I know where they are. I know the vocalists. And I thought, “I’m not even getting close to what you can do when you sing.” I took one of the takes that I thought was really good, listened to it, and then immediately followed it up with the vocalist reference. Well, hey, the problem is vocalists have to sing words. So, if the word “the” is in a line of singing, they can’t say anything but “the.” But if you’re an instrumentalist, you can bring something to it that a vocalist cannot. And when I was talking to one of my brothers, he said, “Well, I can give you a good example. In ‘Somewhere Over the Rainbow,’ if you’re a vocalist, how do you sing ‘birrrds’?” But on piano, or on any instrument, you can make that full of something other than that phonetic sound that sounds ridiculous. 


たぶんフェイクブック(ミュージシャンがメロディを覚えるために著作権無視で作ったネタ本)のひとつにあったんじゃないかと。ジェリー・マリガンのバージョンで聴いたのかな?あとバラードなんかは殆ど歌詞を知ってます。ヴォーカリストが歌うのをたくさん聴いて、駆け出し時代を過ごしてきましたからね。でも最近までずっと気づかなかったことがあるんです。ずいぶん前のことですが、失恋に関する曲に取り組んでみようと思ったんです。でもそれが、つい最近そういう感情を… 生々しく感じるようになって。「ピアノを開けなきゃ、録音ボタンを押さなきゃ。」と。そんな気分じゃないけど、やるしかない。もちろんそういう曲はすべて、実際に歌われてるのを聴いたことのある曲ばかりです。レコードも持っていて、どこにあるかも知っているし、ヴォーカリストも頭に入っています。それで「僕は歌のできることに追い付くどころか、近づくことすらできていない」と思い、録ったものの中から本当に上手く弾けたと思うテイクを選んで聴き、それからすぐにリファレンスとするヴォーカリストの歌と比べて探求したわけです。なるほど、そうか、結局問題なのはヴォーカリストが言葉を歌わなきゃいけないことなんだ。旋律を歌ってても、そこに“the”という言葉があったら“the”と言うほかない。でも楽器の奏者なら、その部分に何かヴォーカリストにはできないものを持ち込むことができるな、と。弟と話してたら「じゃあいい例を教えようか。『虹の彼方に』で、兄さんがヴォーカリストなら‘birrrds’の部分はどうやって歌う?」(訳注:“Birds fly over the rainbow”の部分)なんて言いますが、ピアノにしろ、他の楽器にしろ、あの単語の持つ変な発音ではなくて、何かもっとほかの豊かなサウンドを聴かせることができるわけです。 


EI:  I do think something that’s deepened over the years with the trio are the ballads. They’ve always been very good, of course… 




KJ:  Well, we all play each other’s instruments. Slightly. I mean, my bass playing is terrible, my hands are too small. So Jack and I, when we do soundchecks, Jack goes to the piano, I go to the drums, and that’s how we start the soundcheck. That way I hear what my piano sounds like in his monitor, and he knows what he thinks the piano’s like so he can gear himself to the surroundings. It’s a magical trio, because we’ve played in rooms that I am absolutely sure no other jazz group could’ve managed to play in. We played in the Musikverein in Vienna, and if you ever talk to Jack, ask him about this. We couldn’t use any monitors, we couldn’t use any sound system. The place is so… it’s like 2,000 people, but it’s so alive that I had to play soft. On purpose. And Jack couldn’t use sticks. And we’re just going from our usual selves to this room, doing a soundcheck and saying “Holy shit! Ok, alright, well, we’ll figure this out.” And so Jack, of all the things he does well, the many things I could say about him, his sensitivity to that kind of thing is absolute… his integrity is intact. 


そうですね。僕らは全員、お互いの楽器を弾くことができるんです。少しばかりですが。というか僕のベースはヒドいんですよ。手が小さすぎるんですよね。なのでジャックと僕がサウンドチェックをする時は、ジャックがピアノ、僕がドラムをやります。そうやって、僕は自分のピアノが、ジャックのモニターにどう聴こえるかを確認するのです。そしてジャックはピアノがどのように聴こえるのか、自分が思っていることを確認し、音量やテンションを、周りに対してどう調整するかを決めるのです。とにかく神がかったトリオですよ。他のジャズグループではどうやっても演奏できないような屋内環境でもやってきてますからね。ムジークフェライン(ウィーン楽友協会の大ホール)で演奏したことがありますが、ジャックと話すことがあったら聞いてみてください。モニターも音響システムも使えないんです。あそこはそう… 2000人くらいだけど、とにかくよく響くので、意図的に音量をしっかりと落とす必要がありました。ジャックはスティックが使えないし。いつもの僕らが、このホールのサウンドチェックでは「なんてこった!よし、いいさ、こうなったらなんとかしてやろう。」なんて。ジャックの良いところを僕はいろいろ話せますが、こういったことにかけては、彼の感性は抜群ですし、また誠実さも完璧です。 


EI:  It’s so important that everybody in your group plays free music, as well as on changes. 




KJ:  Yeah, but the so-called avant-garde purist wouldn’t call it free playing. They’d say, “Hey, momentarily you’re playing on the same scale for a minute.” Or, “You’re playing a beat? No.” I need it to go places. 




EI:  In addition to the free aspect, there’s been more and more jazzy jazz, too: More bebop tunes recently. 




KJ:  When I got sick, after I was trying to recover from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – which shouldn’t be what it’s called, it should be called Death While You’re Alive – everything had to get lighter for a minute. And I couldn’t dig in much, but learned how much there was there, at that dynamic level. And some of those things were bebop things, because they have a lightness. They might be fast, but they’re, you know, a little lighter. 




EI:  I couldn’t be there for Carnegie Hall this year, but someone told me you encored with “Carolina Shout.” Is that true? 




KJ:  Yeah. It’s been in my head for a long time. Every now and then, you know how that happens, it just pops back in, and I thought, “Wait, now this time I want to see what happens.” So I made sure I knew how to do that, because I had a ski accident that prevents me from stretching even as much as I would stretch, and I’ve developed ways of playing stride that are illegal in some states. But Gary loves it. He said it gives him more room. Again, it’s voice leading, sometimes it’s the upper parts of the sound, and I don’t need to stay with the bottom. And it’s never, “bluh blah bluh blah,” blocky like that. But yeah, I did that as an encore.