【英日対訳】ミュージシャン達の言葉what's in their mind


【英日対訳:キース・ジャレット】インタビュー:BBC "Jazz on3" '09(5)

Interview with Keith Jarrett 

(Reprinted from old DTM; originally posted September 2009. Thanks to Peggy Sutton of BBC’s Jazz on 3 for arranging the interview.  Steve Weiss was the engineer and Bradley Farberman handled the transcription.) 

BBCラジオ3(BBCのラジオ局)の番組「Jazz on 3」の2009年のインタビューです(聞き手:イーサン・アイヴァーソン[ピアノ奏者、作曲家、音楽評論家)。 




EI:  That’s beautiful. Is there anyone else that you admire in the classical world like that? 




KJ:  Well, not for the same reasons, no. But there’s great players everywhere. 




I’ve had my pianos worked on so many times to try to tweak them to a place either for practicing or for recording. And you just can’t get everything out of anything. That’s why I like meeting new instruments. They all have something to offer. Until you get to ones that you see through the soundboard to the floor. Then they don’t usually have much! But touch does come. Pianists are a strange group of people because they don’t have to know about their instrument. The piano tuners come, work on it, do things and say, “By the way, you need this.” And you say, “Oh, okay,” if you’re casual about it. You don’t have to know about the piano. But if you’re carrying your flute around, or you’re carrying a horn, bass, guitar or anything else, probably you do know your instrument. It could help the pianists if they just learned more about their instrument. Instead of going to the club owner and saying, “Man, I don’t like your piano. It’s just, it’s really bad. I don’t like it,” and hearing the response: “Well, Erroll Garner played on it last week, and no complaint,” they could be more specific. 



When I brought my quartet to the Jazz Workshop in Boston for the first time, I went up to the club owner and said, “You know, your piano needs some…” and I told him what it needed. And he had never heard these things before. It needed some voicing, I can’t remember what else. And I said, “I’m asking for this to be done so that people don’t complain about it. And I’ll come down when he’s here and I’ll make sure he’s doing what needs to be done.” And he said okay. Up to that point, people just said, “Uh, you know, it’s a shitty piano.” And he thought, “Oh, that’s just a musician. He’s in a bad mood.” 



EI:  Was that the quartet with Dewey and Charlie and Paul? 




KJ:  Yeah. 




EI:  I’d love to talk about your musical relationships. Because I think it’s very striking and under-recognized how extraordinarily faithful you’ve been to a certain group of musicians. As a leader, you’ve only recorded with three bass players, three drummers, and two saxophonists, in what… forty years or something? It’s not usually what’s done. For some musicians, there’d be forty different bands in forty years.  It’s clear that you believe in chemistry. 




KJ:  I’m not sure what your question is… 




EI:  Well, tell me about Charlie Haden, for example. 




KJ:  It’s his ears. And his sound is so specifically grounded and his intonation is so good… He doesn’t play above his limits as a technician. Charlie’s unique. In the American group, they had to be listeners, and they had to be uniquely themselves. And they had to be masterful players. 




But, if you’re asking about personality… I was like the road manager, and I was driving these guys around, and Charlie was high all the time, and Dewey was drunk all the time, and Paul was sober enough… If I hadn’t had Paul as an ally, I’d probably be in a mental institution. Ornette was backstage once, and he came up to me and he said, “First of all, Keith, you gotta be black. I don’t care what you say. You’re playing church music, man.” And then he said, “How do you keep Charlie and Dewey in your band this long?” Because he had them. He obviously knew everywhere we landed Charlie was gonna look for a hospital.  And Dewey was gonna look for a bar. 

もっとも、彼の人となりについて言うなら… 僕はロードマネージャーみたいなもんで、車の運転も僕がしていました。チャーリーはいつも薬でハイになっていて、デューイはいつも酔っぱらってて、ポールだけがシラフでしっかりしてました… もしポールという味方がいなかったら、僕はたぶん精神病院に入ってたでしょう。いちどオーネットがバックステージにいた時があって、僕のところに来てこう言ったんです「キース、まずお前は黒人にならなきゃダメだ。お前が何を言おうがそんなことは関係ない。お前の演ってるのはチャーチ・ミュージックだ、分かるな?」それからこう付け加えました「しかしチャーリーとデューイなんかと、よくこんなに長くやれるもんだ。秘訣は何だい?」オーネットは前にふたりを連れてたので、ツアーの行く先々で、チャーリーは病院、デューイは飲み屋を探すことを知ってたんです。 


But basically, the quartet was this absolutely raw commodity. I don’t think anybody else would have thought of putting that together. For the first trio I was thinking of Steve Swallow in the beginning. I hadn’t heard Charlie that much, I wasn’t that aware of his playing. But Steve was busy with Gary Burton, and he had a lot of gigs, and he couldn’t be available. (And I guess I was lucky I didn’t do that, because he started playing electric bass.) So the next guy that I tried out was Charlie, and I thought “Whoa. Okay. This is what I need. Why didn’t I think of this before?” Because Ornette obviously needed these qualities in his band, he wasn’t gonna be playing on anything chordal. 



I have anecdotal stuff to say about the quartet, but it was a wild and crazy thing to try to do, to write for these guys, who all had their own… I would say Paul would be willing to play anything. I mean, for God’s sake, he worked with Arlo Guthrie and Mose Allison. (Mose was cool.) But Paul would play with anybody. He’d play anything. So I had this Armenian drummer who tuned his drums like Armenia would tune them, and Charlie, who was basically so out of it that he was fooling with his bass cover while he was supposed to be playing in time, and Dewey who was not coming in for his entry into the melody, and then I’d ask him why, and he’d say “Well, I was just having a glass of wine backstage, man.” 

カルテットの逸話といえば、彼らのために曲を書こうとするのは大胆不敵というか、狂気の沙汰というか… なにしろ彼らは皆それぞれにありますからね。例えば、ポールはなんでも喜んで演奏する人です。なんてったって彼はアーロ・ガスリーやモーズ・アリソンと一緒にやってたんですから(モーズは良いですよね。)。ポールは誰とでも一緒にやれるし、何でもやれます。だから僕はこのアルメニア風にドラムをチューニングするアルメニア系ドラマーに決めたんです。チャーリーは基本的にラリってて、テンポキープするはずのところでベースカバーをいじってました。それからデューイは、自分がメロディを吹き始めるところで入ってこない。僕がその理由を聞くと「ああ、楽屋でワインを一杯やってたのさ。」なんて言うんです。 


And I remember gathering them together and saying, “Look, it’s been great, and we’ve done this for a long time, but this is it.” But what it was was just the individualism crept in to the point of everybody’s obsessions taking them over. And I just had more to do. 



I don’t believe I got to know Charlie until he was straight. When he was straight, he came up to me, he suddenly had to take care of Old and New Dreams, because Don Cherry was in trouble. And I guess he saw me in a coffee shop in New York or wherever we were and he sat down opposite me and he said, “I’m sorry man. I’m so sorry. I don’t know how you did it, Keith. Now I know what you were dealing with.” And I said, “Well, maybe!” 



But we’ve gotten to know each other really well since then in the last couple of years. I did an interview for the documentary Ramblin’ Boy. Charlie said, “Would you be willing to talk?” 

“Yeah, but I don’t want to play.” 

でもそれ以来、この2、3年で僕らは本当にお互いを理解するようになりました。チャーリーのドキュメンタリー映画『Ramblin' Boy』のインタビューを受けたんです。彼は「話してくれるかい?」と言ってきた。「ああ。でも演奏はしたくない。」 


So he brought his bass, put it in this control room, and we went in and talked. And after we were finished talking I said, “You wanna play?” So, that was the beginning of thinking about thirty-three or -four years, or whatever it was, going by and we sort of bonded in those two tunes or three tunes in a way that we didn’t know. And then when we were doing more playing after that, which was just for me, for my own purposes (whether it comes out is another question), he looked at me and he said, “Man, I didn’t know you had such good time.” I said, “That’s because we had a drummer. How would you know that?” I said the same thing back: “Charlie… why did we think we needed Paul?” 

すると彼は、自分のベースをこのコントロール室に置いて、それから2人で部屋に入って話をしたんです。それで話が終わると、僕が「演奏しようか?」と。それがきっかけで33年とか4年とか、とにかく時間が経ったことを考え始めたし、そのとき演奏した2、3曲で、僕達は知らないうちに絆ができていたんです。その後、ただ自分のため、自分の目的のために、さらに彼と演奏していたとき(それが出てくるかどうかは別問題)[訳注:その後『Jasmine』『Last Dance』としてリリース]、彼は僕をじっと見て、こう言ったんです。「いやあ、君が良い時間を過ごしていたと、こんなにも思っていたなんて、知らなかったよ。」「それは、ドラムがいたからだろう。でなきゃ君が察することもあるもんか。」僕は同じことを問い返しました「チャーリー、ポールに居て欲しいって、なんで今、僕達そう思ったんだろうね?」 


EI:  Of course, Paul played so differently with you than with Bill Evans. Jazz history hasn’t really caught up with Paul Motian yet. People are very aware of Paul’s being a part of the iconic Bill Evans trio, where he played some great brush work and that’s about it. But there were more years and more records with you, and certainly a greater variety of music…  and also extremely aggressive drumming. 




KJ:  Yeah. It was like Mozart  The piano is not supposed to be up front when you’re playing a Mozart concerto. You’re almost too soft. And with Paul, I didn’t have to try to be almost too soft. I loved it, though, because I was also a drummer, so I knew what Paul was doing was so brilliantly correct for this situation that I was never gonna say a word about it. I couldn’t have ever imagined saying to Paul, “Paul, you’re playing too loud.” Here was a guy who was probably waiting for this, through the whole brushes thing with Bill. Bill didn’t want him to use sticks. 




And that’s where the writing became of utmost importance. There had to be a way to have Dewey not play on changes, to have Charlie not play vamps forever. (Although, when he wanted to play a vamp, there was nobody that plays them better than Charlie.) But Charlie always wanted to challenge the tonic, and challenge the chord he’s playing. He’s not always going to play the root. “I’m sorry, I’m not gonna play that damn root. I don’t care what you think.” And then every now and then, he’d play the root so beautifully that you’d just say, well, these are choices he’s making, I’m not gonna screw with this. This is an ensemble that’s supposed to be spontaneous and I think the way I’ve handled being a leader is one of the keys to why those, even the Norwegian quartet, why those things worked the way they did. Because there was no drill. I wasn’t a drill sergeant. 



Just to give you an example: Dewey was always late for things, forever and ever, Amen. I had driven into New York, we were rehearsing at Paul’s apartment, and Dewey was a couple of hours late. You know, we’re twiddling our thumbs… I don’t know what song this is… Dewey shows up, and he’s a very poor reader. (Charlie was a great reader.) Dewey was a very poor reader. He needed to “play this slow first.” And I didn’t have time for that. So I thought, okay. Alright. Paul: just play as though we’re playing fast, but it’s not a pulse. And Charlie: you know the piece, you can tell where we are. And Dewey: you just play whatever tempo you can read it. And that’s how it ended up being recorded, the same way. I never took Dewey aside and said, “Now you have to go to what my original concept was.” The concept had to be so flexible with that band, that even though I had music for it, I didn’t have to determine what was done with that music. 

ひとつ例を挙げると、デューイはいつも遅刻ばかりしてました。いつもいつもです、アーメン。僕が車でニューヨークに来て、ポールのアパートでリハーサルをしてたら、デューイが2時間遅れてきて。もうみんなやきもきして… わかりますよね。何の曲だっだかな… デューイがやっと顔を出したはいいけど、彼は譜読みがとてつもなくダメなんです。(チャーリーの譜読みは素晴らしいけど。)なのでデューイは「まずゆっくり演奏する」ことが必要なんです。でも僕には時間がありませんでした。そこで考えて、オーケーわかった、ポール、君は「いかにも速いテンポで演奏している」風にやってくれ。それとチャーリーは、この曲知ってるだろうから、進行もわかるよね。そしてデューイ、君はやれるテンポで演奏してくれればいい。そうやって結局レコーディングもやりました。僕はデューイを脇に呼んで「とにかく僕の元々のコンセプトにそって演奏してくれよ」なんて言ったことはありません。あのバンドでは、コンセプトなんてものは臨機応変に変えていかないといけないんですよ。僕がそのコンセプトのために音楽を作ったとしても、その音楽で何をやるかを決める必要はないんです。 


Sometimes a melody has chords, then Dewey’s solo doesn’t, then you forget what the chords actually were by then, then maybe something happens after Dewey, and then I’m playing on the chords. Or it’s now a ballad. And it was great. But it was very hard. Very, very hard. First of all, if the guys are only semi-conscious, you know you’re still trying to generate the energy.